WORSE THAN STRANGERS with Kyleigh Leddy & Lauren Okie
[0:00]person. So I'm going to start with a question. This is not a mic, right? I have to project.
[0:04]Okay, okay. That's my, that's my, I'm going to start us off really smoothly. I'm Lauren. I
[0:09]write very messy rule-breaking love stories. My latest is Troopsick, which came out in June. I
[0:17]live locally-ish. I live in the South Bay, so the South of the airport. So nice journey up here.
[0:23]I'm really excited to be here with Kylie, where some strangers is a beautiful book that I finish.
[0:29]Like four hours ago, because I have like the memory of a goldfish. So I'm very fresh,
[0:34]and I have lots of questions. So I'm going to get started, and I guess we'll talk for like half an hour,
[0:40]and then if you have any questions that I don't ask, you can ask them. My first is going to be,
[0:47]okay, well like I wrote this, I have always questions, and okay, give me the elevator pitch
[0:51]for this book. Okay, and I'll let you know a few talk for too long. That's going to be like,
[0:55]actually compressed. Okay. Yeah, well, first of all, thanks for having me being here. This is so
[0:59]fun. Okay, I'm a very good elevator pitch, I think. I've gone it pretty late. You're ready to run
[1:04]in short. Kill more girls meets Jane Austen on an ticket. That is okay. So that means we have a
[1:12]mother and a daughter. The daughter's we have an in a ticket. Yep. And we have Jane Austen. Yeah,
[1:18]okay. So then I'm going to just like, I'm going to move right. I have some wear glasses,
[1:21]so this is funny that I'm like, no, okay. All right, you gave me the elevator pitch for your book.
[1:27]Let's have a Jane Austen. Yes. Okay, let's do it. So are you like an Austen file or was this just like
[1:33]you were like, this makes sense. I want to pull persuasion into this book. Like give me the origin story,
[1:39]yeah, of your relationship with Jane Austen and how it showed up in this novel. Yeah,
[1:43]I'm a huge Austen file, and I think persuasions for best book. I feel like that's controversial
[1:48]take, but I love it. It's her last. I think it's her deepest. Just like so much longing and
[1:53]it's much maturity. It's the oldest heroine we get, which I think is fun. And like 20 or she's 26. 28,
[1:59]she's essentially deceased. Yeah, she's over. Yeah. We're just kind of fun to interpret
[2:06]a modern age. So much. But it's fun. I think it's so much so many good character arcs, many good
[2:10]plot points on the play around with, but also the fun of liking that like still applicable today.
[2:16]So I always want to do a Jane Austen adaptation at some point that was in a modern world. And
[2:20]first place is my favorite. And just kind of came together. I always say the loose retelling. Like
[2:24]it's really like kind of like a, you know, like nods and wings instead of being a strict
[2:28]reader. Yeah. I'm going to I'm going to squint at my question here about your loose retelling. Yeah.
[2:32]Okay. So this book is a persuasion retelling, but it also is a story about a mother and a daughter.
[2:39]So when you decided to retell persuasion and you started, you know, adding
[2:45]extraneous characters, like a daughter. What was your, what was like the balancing act of that?
[2:51]Like how did the retelling frame your storytelling? Like the way that you wrote this and how did you,
[2:58]you know, make your own creative decisions for your own spin on it? Yeah. Well, I wrote this book
[3:02]originally totally separate from Jane Austen. And I had a draft going at a very bad day at work.
[3:08]I think it's funny. And I sat down and was like, I'm going to write this book. I like had a whole
[3:13]sketch of it just that first day, like during a meeting when I should have been working. And so
[3:17]that was funny. And then later on, I kind of saw there are some similar themes of persuasion.
[3:22]I brought those out more. So it was kind of like a first layer and then a second layer.
[3:26]I added a lot of characters are not there. I think first of all, Jane, and Elliot,
[3:32]the main character persuasion of being 28 is challenging because a lot of her
[3:36]musings are about lost potential, about lost love and kind of being at this end of this
[3:41]like life for her and being like, I'm now spinster. And she faces the great unknown very funny
[3:48]for 28 year old. So I want to tell my other daughter story where I feel like, you know, like,
[3:52]the second chance that he has more stakes, you know, like this is a past love from many years ago
[3:56]that comes back. It's dual POV. So it's the mom's perspective and the daughter's perspective.
[4:02]And they both have past loves come back. They deal with in different ways. So I kind of want to
[4:06]answer the question of persuasion, which is like, can you repeat the past? Can you go back in time
[4:11]from and had two of an answers? That makes sense. Yes, it does. I also, which is funny. And I have a
[4:17]persuasion book also. My debut has an epigraph from persuasion because I'm also in the persuasion
[4:23]supremacy. Yeah, wherever one should be. But I think what makes that book so special to me
[4:30]is that yearning, like, is that longing? Is this like that concept of strangers, which I think is
[4:37]really interesting? You do such a nice job with this. But, but it also talks so much about,
[4:43]like intimacy. And I want to talk to you about specifically about building a mother-daughter
[4:49]relationship like this. Like, I would love to know how you built that. Like, is that inspired by
[4:54]you and your mother? Or is it inspired by some of these, like, you know, these properties in pop culture?
[5:00]So I'll let you start with that and then I have like nine follow ups. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, it's very loosely inspired by my mom and I
[5:08]I think my mom's a best friend and we're super close and I want to tell a story where like, you know, both characters have very
[5:15]Flushed out narratives and I always say the relationship between the characters is similar to my mom and I in terms of closeness
[5:21]And the actual characters themselves are nothing like us, which is kind of funny
[5:25]But I tell them that's like, you know, the mom has her own life going on her own love story and they talk about it and it's complicated and messy and yeah, yeah
[5:35]And I think like okay, so let's see I had some I want to talk more about their relationship. Yeah, it says it right here
[5:41]Okay, so when I read the back of this book like the marketing copy they're they're sort of marketed as best friends first mother daughter second. Yeah, um
[5:51]And I also know that you are a little bit of a therapist in real life. So I wanted to ask you is that like a red flag?
[5:57]Like you know what I mean like how does is that a good thing?
[6:00]Is that a bad thing? Is it somewhere in the middle ground? Like I think there are also secrets in this book
[6:05]And when you are that close
[6:07]To like your child or to your mother like I think sometimes those lines can be blurred
[6:11]So I just wanted to talk a little bit about that there and like without any spoilers like letting people
[6:16]I didn't give them now some insight into the work that you did there and like, you know
[6:21]Yeah, well, isn't it your red persuasion and it now? Okay. No, we're gonna sell it for me personally
[6:28]It is it is hot. We're gonna convert you. Yeah. It's a it's a good book
[6:32]But Ann Ellie at the character there is very self sacrificing and she's kind of like the one of them goes to with their problems
[6:39]She's always put herself second and I think that was kind of fun to think about the therapist
[6:44]So the character the mother in a book is a therapist and she's the Ann Elliot stand in so that was fun to play with
[6:49]So I'm also a therapist and mental health a big theme
[6:52]But in terms of intimacy. Yeah, I think it's very messy and that's kind of fun of it is that they're not it's not always a good thing
[6:58]And that plays out in the book
[7:00]There are closeness gets in the way a lot of misunderstandings
[7:03]But also I think like in measurement in some ways is unavoidable
[7:07]Like we all are in mesh with each other and life is not so clean and simple as we'd like it to be
[7:12]So I want to play around with that but also I'm making it like a kind of nation of being so close
[7:18]Yeah, yeah, and I don't and I don't think it is at all
[7:20]I think it is sort of interesting like just thinking back in my own relationship with my mother
[7:24]And I did a fair amount while I was reading this and who was no longer living
[7:29]And one of the things that I really felt when I first lost her was like
[7:34]God, I wish I knew more about who you were before you met my father
[7:38]And like she she was not like an emotionally open person. I felt like that
[7:43]That was like a story that kind of disappeared with her, you know
[7:47]And like who is the first person you love like when did you lose your virtue?
[7:50]Like questions I could never imagine asking my own mother
[7:54]And so when I read books like this I'm always a little bit like you know
[7:57]Like it hurts a little but I think it's like really nice to see like different types of intimacy
[8:03]Yeah, like
[8:05]It was made up of word. That's why I'm just playing. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's see. Um, okay
[8:14]I feel like who has read this book besides your
[8:18]That's a good show. Okay. All right. So for those who haven't without any spoilers
[8:24]Do you want to give everyone like maybe 30 seconds to a minute on the situations that Lily and Rose find themselves in
[8:31]When the book opens because right now I feel like we're just we're just yapping without context
[8:36]Yeah, yeah, well, I would say also like grief is kind of a subplot too
[8:40]So Lily is the daughter and Rose is the mom and Lily returns home for the summer. She's 25 recently fired
[8:46]She's in a bad spot. She's not doing well
[8:48]Comes back to see her mom and she finds out that her ex who she was still talking to was recently engaged
[8:55]So that ends up being her heartbreak going through that at the same time her mom comes home
[9:00]They live in like a cottage and sconced on a ticket if you're familiar and they're renting out half the property and the renter happens to be roses first love
[9:07]So it's like they're both kind of confronted with their first loves and they discuss it and talk about that heartbreak reconnect
[9:14]Disconnect is gets very complicated, but that's the initial setup. So it's like the Jane Austin retelling is like they're both in these kind of like micro persuasion situations
[9:25]Yeah, that they bond over exactly
[9:28]So let's talk about grief. It's time your memoir Kylie is a memoir that came out now. I four years ago. Yeah, four years ago about grief
[9:39]How different was writing?
[9:42]Fiction and nonfiction and how do you feel like being a memo memoirist? Is that the word? Yeah, my greatest fear is I don't know any words
[9:51]So like my first fear is making that
[9:54]Definitely writer
[9:56]And yeah, so tell me about that process and
[10:00]tell me about how different this was
[10:04]and maybe in ways that it was the same
[10:05]or how you're more writing experience
[10:08]may be informed your fiction writing.
[10:10]Yeah.
[10:11]So my, I got my story at the New York Times
[10:13]Modern Love column, if anyone knows that?
[10:15]Or that.
[10:16]Okay.
[10:17]I'm gonna have it out, which I love.
[10:18]It's a great column.
[10:19]And I was a senior in college,
[10:21]so I'd always wanted to be a writer.
[10:23]It was my biggest dream, very cliche,
[10:25]but didn't really think it was possible to get published.
[10:27]So I had a teacher who encouraged me to submit to the contest
[10:30]on a whim and ended up winning that college essay contest
[10:33]in the column and that propelled my career.
[10:35]So that essay was about losing my sister
[10:38]and about kind of how grief has changed with technology
[10:41]because now we have Instagrams and Facebook active
[10:44]and reminders of when birthday
[10:46]and just the voice mail just very complicated.
[10:49]So I wrote about that experience
[10:51]and then that got published.
[10:53]I was at my senior week of college, so May.
[10:56]And then I got agent's offers, book deal offers,
[10:59]signed, and then that following fall,
[11:00]I signed my first book.
[11:01]And I wanted to shed a light on mental health.
[11:06]My sister struggled with schizophrenia,
[11:07]with bipolar disorder.
[11:09]And I wanted to talk about grief as well
[11:11]as like losing somebody and pre-morning them
[11:14]and just all that stuff.
[11:16]And I was so young, I lost her.
[11:17]I was 17 and 2020 worked in memoir.
[11:19]So I was really kind of untangling that in real time.
[11:23]I always say like that memoir really helped heal
[11:26]me, I think, but it was the worst process ever writing it.
[11:29]It was excruciatingly painful.
[11:32]It was harder than grief because you're,
[11:34]I think, I was grieving, I was surviving,
[11:36]and then I was writing to process
[11:37]and to make meaning of for an audience too
[11:40]and just the pressure and it was horrible.
[11:42]You know, it's so young.
[11:43]It was so young as very vulnerable by wanting to be
[11:47]as honest thoughtsfulness.
[11:48]So it's a really broad book.
[11:49]And I'm very proud of it, but it's hard.
[11:52]It's a hard to read and it's hard to write.
[11:55]And I kind of wanted almost to like,
[11:57]opposite with this book, which is comfort.
[11:59]So I wrote this as like,
[12:01]after war is as like a bomb for myself as well as the reader.
[12:04]I almost imagined like maybe you read the memoir
[12:06]and you know, you're sad.
[12:08]And now we're just welcome, basket of all time.
[12:11]I'm like, can I make you really sad
[12:13]then I'm like, here's something that you're gonna read
[12:15]for a bad and you're gonna get a good night's sleep.
[12:17]Like it's gonna be like comforting,
[12:18]hopefully interesting and thought-broken,
[12:20]but not as devastating.
[12:23]So it was half for me and half, I think,
[12:25]where I wanted through the reader
[12:27]and my own experience reading.
[12:29]And it's so funny.
[12:30]I think I wrote the memoir.
[12:31]There was like a period where I wrote the ending
[12:33]feeling healed and I wasn't actually feeling as healed
[12:36]as I wanted to be.
[12:37]And then afterward, I really didn't really help me.
[12:40]And then with this one, I wrote about, you know,
[12:42]falling in love.
[12:43]I, my fiance-nens in the back,
[12:46]are getting there in November.
[12:48]Books take a long time to get, you know, printed.
[12:50]So it's a long journey.
[12:52]And then in the last time too,
[12:53]I wrote the book, my mom was single now.
[12:54]She was married as well.
[12:56]So it was kind of a funny process
[12:57]to have like magical, you know,
[13:00]power of writing and healing.
[13:01]Yeah.
[13:02]And I think like, it's funny that you mentioned books,
[13:09]like just now in my own experience, right?
[13:11]I'm realizing that like a book is like a one, two,
[13:16]really three year commitment before.
[13:18]And with like if you think about from the day you think
[13:21]of the idea and tell when people stop talking about it,
[13:24]you know, it's like for about four years.
[13:25]And it's a really long time to live with this story.
[13:28]And I've met so many authors who have become my friends
[13:31]who have said something similar,
[13:32]which is that sometimes the books we write
[13:34]aren't even necessarily the books that are to our taste.
[13:36]Yeah.
[13:37]As readers, it's about where like,
[13:40]it's about what kind of headspace we want to be in
[13:42]for multiple years and that really shifts.
[13:44]And you'll see that reflection in books.
[13:46]And I think it's really interesting.
[13:49]By the time you out, you kind of move on
[13:50]from it in some ways.
[13:51]Yeah.
[13:52]Because yet you heal or because it's very similar
[13:54]to the way that an artist may make an album.
[13:56]Like if you want to talk about Taylor Swift,
[13:58]which I constantly wish to do.
[14:01]But it's just idea where it's the same artist
[14:03]creating a new experience every couple of years.
[14:06]That's really kind of like reflective of what you want to be.
[14:09]Making and like hopefully you may ping your voice
[14:11]but you're sort of moving from like one sort of story
[14:14]to the next based on where you want to put your energy.
[14:18]I love where you put your energy.
[14:19]Are you able to tell us at all
[14:21]where you're putting your energy in the future?
[14:25]Absolutely.
[14:26]Well, okay.
[14:27]So my next book's coming out next August,
[14:29]which I'm very excited for.
[14:31]I mentioned that I'm engaged.
[14:33]Where did I marry in November?
[14:35]I have anyone here who has planned a wedding recently
[14:37]or helped her love on planet wedding.
[14:38]It is horrible.
[14:39]It is, it's just the end issue.
[14:41]Is it like, is it gotten worse?
[14:42]Like I've heard that it's now impossible
[14:43]to get into college.
[14:45]And I'm like, I wonder if being married
[14:46]is like getting married is also more competitive.
[14:48]I thought it's so, the industry is so crazy.
[14:51]It's so expensive.
[14:52]It's so stressful.
[14:53]So my book is about that,
[14:55]which was really fun and cathartic to write about.
[14:58]I was planning a big wedding.
[15:00]And I could not handle it.
[15:01]I'm not a good bride.
[15:03]I'm just not ready for it.
[15:04]And I just could not the logistics and the money
[15:06]and the stress cancel it.
[15:08]And now we're like having a small oatment micro wedding.
[15:11]It's very fun to take it.
[15:12]Do you want?
[15:12]Yes, thank you.
[15:14]But yes, so that energy is very much in that book.
[15:17]It's one of the characters is like a wedding planner.
[15:20]It's very funny and kind of folks fun at it also.
[15:22]Explore is the good and the bad.
[15:24]So do you feel like, again, it was you writing
[15:26]like a book that asks you half for your reader?
[15:29]Yeah.
[15:30]I have a hard time.
[15:31]I feel you get obsessed with some topics and ideas.
[15:33]And that comes out in your work.
[15:34]And I don't know how to write about something
[15:36]I'm not obsessed with.
[15:38]I'm thinking about a lot of doing it.
[15:39]Do you like the boring for your reader?
[15:42]A gift to your reader that you're engaged with your work.
[15:45]What's not going to do with tuck it?
[15:46]That's coming up a lot.
[15:48]The setting is so good.
[15:50]This book has such a sense of place.
[15:53]Right now we have the pleasure of it.
[15:55]We can all read this now.
[15:56]It's like beautiful weather.
[15:57]But if you were reading this in Detroit in like December,
[16:01]you would be, you could armchair read this.
[16:04]So tell me about your experience with Ann Tuckett.
[16:06]I already have extra answers because Kylie and I
[16:08]had dinner before this.
[16:09]But tell me about your Ann Tuckett experience
[16:12]and how it showed up in this book.
[16:14]And it's role in the story.
[16:16]Yeah.
[16:17]I've been going since I was an infant.
[16:19]So Ann Tuckett's always been like home to me a lot of ways.
[16:21]And then my mom moved there full time for 10 years.
[16:24]So that really was home for all my college.
[16:27]And post graders.
[16:29]She actually just moved off the island when she got married.
[16:31]So very recent.
[16:33]So Tuckett's it's a very interesting place.
[16:35]Has it either been here, been there?
[16:37]Yeah.
[16:37]Love it.
[16:38]OK.
[16:39]It's small.
[16:41]It's beautiful.
[16:42]It's like rusting in some ways.
[16:44]And it's very privileged in other ways.
[16:46]It's a complicated place.
[16:47]The history is fascinating.
[16:50]So I wanted to pour a lot of that into it,
[16:51]like this feeling of the good and the bad again.
[16:54]Like the beauty of being isolated,
[16:57]the beauty of the anatomy of the island,
[16:59]the community feeling when things are so small.
[17:01]So my mom was there in the winter for 10 years.
[17:03]And you know, you get to know people.
[17:05]It becomes very intimate.
[17:06]You can't go to the grocery store that seeing somebody know.
[17:08]It's just that kind of town.
[17:10]And it's fun to play around that in a book
[17:13]because the characters have to see each other.
[17:15]Like they're going to bump into it.
[17:16]Which is like the Gilmore Girls effect, right?
[17:18]Of the town.
[17:19]Like the town's people.
[17:20]Yeah.
[17:21]Everyone knows everyone's business.
[17:22]You can't avoid it.
[17:23]You can't avoid it.
[17:25]And did you write this in New York?
[17:28]Or did you go back?
[17:29]Or did you just like know it so well that you didn't need to?
[17:32]Yeah.
[17:33]It's a good question.
[17:34]I would have different places.
[17:35]A lot of them took it a lot in New York where I live now.
[17:39]But I think it's interesting.
[17:40]Like when you're there, you get obviously
[17:42]you can pull your data experiences,
[17:44]things you're seeing, where you're smelling,
[17:46]where you're touching.
[17:47]But when you're actually away from place,
[17:48]it's like somebody's doing a better view of it.
[17:50]So it was fun to kind of have both angles.
[17:52]Like go back and like talk about it.
[17:54]And yeah.
[17:55]Well, I feel like when you're removed, right,
[17:58]you're sort of more in like a reader situation
[18:00]where like you can only pull a handful of specifics.
[18:03]Which is like all the real needs.
[18:05]Help me, help me.
[18:07]Amazing.
[18:07]I have no, I realize I have no phone.
[18:09]I have no watch.
[18:10]So I'm guessing on time we're good.
[18:12]How many, how good?
[18:17]Oh, you have it.
[18:18]She has one.
[18:18]We're at 6.30.
[18:19]Okay, cool.
[18:20]So let's do like 10 more.
[18:21]Okay, so we see, we talked about grief,
[18:24]talked about setting.
[18:26]We talked about your memoir.
[18:29]Do you wanna talk at all about the writing process?
[18:31]You teach creative writing, right?
[18:33]So is it easier to teach it or do it?
[18:36]Like what is your experience?
[18:38]Like what is your, do you outline?
[18:41]Was this plan, do you just mix stuff up?
[18:44]How did you, how did this become this?
[18:49]I haven't mixed with like, I have some plots.
[18:51]I'm outline.
[18:52]I also improvise and like, I know what,
[18:54]where I want the characters to get,
[18:55]but not always how I want me to get there.
[18:57]So I do a mix.
[18:59]I was thinking like, so you ever learned books yet.
[19:02]She plays a lot with like this meta fiction idea
[19:04]in both.
[19:05]I think persuasion, your first one,
[19:06]is it like a nod to it.
[19:08]You know what I mean?
[19:09]Like, yeah, I play with something.
[19:10]Oh, my, my stuff.
[19:11]Yeah, yeah.
[19:12]I do weird stuff.
[19:13]Yeah.
[19:14]And anyway, obviously tropes say this book's very weird.
[19:15]Yeah.
[19:16]Yeah.
[19:17]It's beautiful.
[19:18]It's amazing.
[19:19]But it's playing out like tropes
[19:20]and they come to life in really amazing ways
[19:22]and magical realism.
[19:24]And I think like,
[19:24]my next book on my characters is a writer
[19:26]and that's a really fun to play with.
[19:27]And I was wondering for you,
[19:29]like, I don't,
[19:29]I'm not trying to turn on you, we're just curious.
[19:31]I'm asking this before.
[19:32]So now I'm taking my time to ask you.
[19:33]Yeah.
[19:34]Like how the idea of writing like plays into it.
[19:38]Cause I think that's always interesting.
[19:40]Oh my gosh.
[19:41]Yeah.
[19:42]I don't know.
[19:43]Although I love a self-aware narrative.
[19:44]I think that's like my short answer.
[19:46]Before this becomes a trope.
[19:48]So I think craft.
[19:49]Yeah.
[19:51]Some posing.
[19:52]But yeah, I think for me,
[19:56]I just sort of like lean in
[19:58]to whatever happens.
[19:59]And then.
[20:00]I sort of believe that like if something is a mistake,
[20:03]you can be removed later.
[20:04]So I try not to self edit in a first draft
[20:07]because there will be more opportunities to revise
[20:10]or delete.
[20:11]And I think sometimes like our intuition
[20:13]and our subconscious are better storytellers
[20:16]than like our best laid plans.
[20:18]And then so I just like kind of just dumping stuff
[20:21]all over my draft.
[20:22]And then in the second draft is when I start to take control.
[20:27]So I think I sort of lean in.
[20:29]And so I think it's like,
[20:30]this book is really interesting in particular for me
[20:33]because it's like a nesting doll of meta-fiction
[20:38]and their author is writing a book about authors
[20:41]who were like in the author tropes
[20:42]they're coming true and they're being hosted by an author.
[20:44]And so everyone is a creator.
[20:46]And I think it's just, you know,
[20:48]you're just similar to what you've done I think in here
[20:51]where it's like the magazine work we talked about magazines
[20:53]or the therapist work where it's like you have,
[20:57]you bring to the table that you are.
[20:59]You know, and I think, yeah.
[21:01]So I think it's probably probably the hot.
[21:03]This subconscious is funny.
[21:04]Yeah, that's weird.
[21:05]It's very weird.
[21:06]Because I think it's some of my leaders don't expect.
[21:08]You don't even know you're doing sometimes.
[21:11]I didn't even have to be able to ask me
[21:12]they're like, oh, like, you know,
[21:14]so it's two POVs, mom and daughter,
[21:16]but there's a grandmother figure
[21:18]who's also kind of continuity of a big three narrators
[21:22]on the audio, right?
[21:22]I did some audio.
[21:23]So it was so fun.
[21:24]So she, the grandmother figure,
[21:26]she's their great aunt.
[21:26]She speaks like two chapters.
[21:29]And I think she's my Santa and like, I love her.
[21:32]Like, I'm like, who are you in this book?
[21:33]I'm like, I'm the grandmother.
[21:35]But she's a writer as well.
[21:36]And that's interesting that comes in to play it.
[21:39]And she's obsessed with Jane Austen.
[21:40]So she's kind of the one like leading it in a way.
[21:43]But she's a school teacher.
[21:46]And I had an interview where I'd be like,
[21:47]oh, like, what's your grandmother like?
[21:49]And I was like, she's a school teacher.
[21:51]And I was like, oh my God,
[21:53]I have not into any kind of connection.
[21:55]I thought I think she's like,
[21:57]yeah, I don't think she's anywhere near my grandmother.
[21:59]And I'm like, oh, like things come out.
[22:01]And you're like, and I'm not exactly ways.
[22:02]You go back to that.
[22:03]But I think, has anyone watched that show
[22:05]with Steve Carole the Rooster?
[22:07]I want to.
[22:08]Okay.
[22:09]He's kind of like a Carl Hayassan type he writes,
[22:12]like, be treats for men.
[22:13]And he ends up teaching a seminar at his daughter's college
[22:17]and like how to write a bestseller or something.
[22:19]And he says this line that I have not Googled.
[22:22]So they're like, like someone else has said it.
[22:25]But he says, like, you can't write it if it's not in you.
[22:28]And when he's teaching a class,
[22:29]when they're talking about his different characters.
[22:31]And I think that's such an interesting thing.
[22:33]Like there you must be in all of these people
[22:36]because you made them.
[22:38]Yeah. And you have to love them all.
[22:39]And then they're like, making mistakes.
[22:41]Even though they're all insane.
[22:43]I know.
[22:43]Yeah, I know.
[22:44]I know, I know.
[22:45]Well, it's such a great book.
[22:47]I'm very excited for what's next.
[22:50]How was this like, how did it feel?
[22:52]I mean, since you were a memoirist first,
[22:55]did this feel like a true debut to you?
[22:57]Or did you feel like you've been there done that?
[23:01]Like how have the experiences compared?
[23:03]It does feel like a debut in some ways.
[23:06]I think I had some knowledge industry, which
[23:08]helped because you had like a copy edited your book.
[23:11]But you knew what it was like to work with a publisher.
[23:13]Yeah, I was 25.
[23:14]My first book came out like towards like tailing the COVID.
[23:16]So it was different experience.
[23:18]And probably it was also like hilarious
[23:20]because they've done it so many times
[23:22]that they're just like attached to your PPS six.
[23:26]And you're like, no one was how you at that means.
[23:28]And they're just like, and you have to like,
[23:29]go to the lab.
[23:30]It's so much like just like learning by fire.
[23:33]Like it's tough.
[23:34]So that was helpful to have some knowledge of stuff.
[23:36]But this was so fun to write.
[23:39]Like it was really an escapism for me.
[23:41]And it was really a joy to write and return to.
[23:44]I love the characters.
[23:44]I felt I love the world.
[23:45]It was really fun.
[23:47]So that was different.
[23:48]What I didn't expect was how vulnerable it would still
[23:51]feel.
[23:51]I think like you've had a memoir at 25.
[23:53]That's a crazy move.
[23:55]You know, that little process that in 20 years.
[23:57]And like your life is out there.
[23:59]And you've exposed yourself.
[24:00]But I think fiction is also exposing in some ways.
[24:03]Oh, yeah, it's like it's worse.
[24:04]It's vulnerable.
[24:05]And like, I think maybe you've got more things to say.
[24:07]But crap, I think there's an impenetrable memoir
[24:10]because they can't say like this change in your life.
[24:14]Yeah, you got to care if you're like,
[24:15]you know, you should change the third actors.
[24:16]You're like, well, I can't.
[24:17]Like that would be nice.
[24:19]But fiction you can.
[24:20]And I think like that vulnerability was shocking to me
[24:23]that I still felt that way.
[24:24]Yeah, I thought I was kind of like bulletproof.
[24:26]Yeah, it's a very, yeah.
[24:27]Well, it's very brave to write a memoir.
[24:29]I think especially that young.
[24:32]But I think finding fiction is also an act of bravery,
[24:34]especially in today's algorithmic world
[24:38]where we're so used to consuming or being kind of fed
[24:41]experiences that are exactly to our taste all the time.
[24:46]Where I think about it now, or it's like, oh,
[24:50]like the more I read, like the more generous I am.
[24:56]Not just like with craft, but like really with humans.
[25:00]out and care what you do. Let's book, you know. And I think that like I think that it is
[25:06]like increasingly more difficult to put yourself out there when people are just not used
[25:11]to being exposed to things that they don't like, you know. And so I'm very proud of you.
[25:16]Yes. I don't think you made any mistakes. Thank you.
[25:20]No, it's funny that I think like with memoir too, I was I believe in the mission of the book so
[25:24]much and the statement of it that it was protective in that way too. I wanted to shed light on
[25:28]something, bring awareness to it. And then I think with like a novel, you're still doing that
[25:33]you believe in the message, which is like, love can happen anytime, love can come back, people
[25:37]deserve happiness. It's me things I want to talk about here, but also like I want to
[25:41]create beauty. And that is kind of it's a different thing to claim to want to do. And whether
[25:47]you succeed at it is different. Well, I mean, you told me exactly how this I don't have
[25:53]teachers. You told me I didn't know how you thought this book would best be consumed.
[25:58]So maybe you should tell everyone. Yeah. How how you think? Why did I want it to be so comforting?
[26:04]So I really wanted to write a book that like you are engaged in it, but you are not anxious by it.
[26:10]Like I want it to be like, you are at the beach, you're in bed, you want to go to sleep like you're
[26:15]like relaxed. And it is like helping you feel relaxed. Like I want to calm your nervous LED light
[26:21]mask for your hair. Like my therapist voice is coming out. I'm like, I want it to be like
[26:25]literally like you are like feeling like you are in your body and in your nervousness.
[26:29]So this is like instead of scrolling, we prescribe in like 36 minutes of worse than strangers.
[26:36]Yeah. It's a beautiful place. Like then tuck. It's a great place to be. Like hope I capture that
[26:40]and the feeling of being. Yeah. It's really Ellen. How they're like, right. Who's like the queen of
[26:45]new tuck it. Have you gone to her to be met her? I haven't met her. Yeah. To like her weekly
[26:50]signing. I have not. I've seen it from afar. It's like, she was lying. But I feel like her books
[26:54]are like similar like right where it's, I mean, she's done a few that are like twisty, toney or
[26:59]whatever, but, but like in general where it's like, okay, very joy. I'm on the beach. It's time.
[27:05]Yeah. Exactly. Which is a great feeling. Does anyone have any? Okay. I'm going to be
[27:10]if I die on the drive home. It's because my neck is on her. I'm going to lay turn. I'm in the
[27:14]freeway. Um, does anyone have any questions for Kylie? I'm going to practice. I'm going to go to the
[27:19]other side. Nice. As writers, I'm sure that you guys appreciate the craft of writing and we
[27:30]really do that. But what AI now to actually use it at all in your process of developing anything
[27:36]or you're just sticking purely to what your brain and your peeing is wanting to write. Yeah.
[27:42]I'll let you go first. Yeah. I don't use it at all. I think um, kind of time of the subconscious and
[27:47]stuff too. Like you just miss out on so much and you outsource any of that labor. I'm a believer. I
[27:52]think writing like can be painful and maybe that's good because you have to figure out what you think
[27:57]what you feel and so much comes out in that process of like grappling with it. So I didn't
[28:01]any kind of, for me, any kind of use like in the way of that experience. So I say away from it.
[28:05]Yeah. I think like outside of sort of I think like first and foremost, we have like ethical and
[28:10]professional standards, which would like. So like using it is so out of the question, even if I wasn't
[28:16]morally opposed for for this type of work, but I do agree that like um,
[28:21]I mean, my stance on like AI doing creative stuff is like, well, it's never had sex,
[28:25]it's never been outside. So like I don't really not really interested in what it has to say.
[28:30]Do you know what I mean? And like in a friendly way, like where it's like 400 pages is a really
[28:36]long time to spend like that's like a big ask of a reader for me to be like, I want you to spend
[28:42]seven to 10 hours in this story. And like for me, the fact that like it almost killed me for
[28:48]two years is a sign of respect, right? Like to give back to someone else, which is like, hey,
[28:53]this is Warner pages of like pure madness and human experience about like the way that I see the
[28:58]world. And I think that like it would be um, like I can see the temptation if like you're stuck
[29:06]to being like, what should I do next? I think, but it's like for me so much of the magic
[29:12]of like, of storytelling is like when you go on a walk with a friend and you're like,
[29:16]stop, stop, stop and then at minute 48, you're like, hey, what if, right? And it's just the
[29:21]wildest thing in the world and it solves everything. And like, I don't know what, you know,
[29:25]Kylie's been writing her whole adult life, but I have not. And um, but I always wanted to. And one
[29:32]of the things that I was like really morning in my 20s with like a career that I really did not like
[29:38]was like, I miss, I miss my brain being like hot, right? I miss like the friction and challenge
[29:44]and I think that AI takes that away and while I was tempting like like this, this job is like,
[29:50]this job is sexy because it's hard. You know what I mean? Yeah, big, big AI.
[29:56]Like that was my TED Talk. It was good. Yeah. Yeah.
[30:00]Any other questions?
[30:01]Yeah.
[30:02]I need to choose that item,
[30:03]if you show that the moment of the two codes
[30:07]and then what was the question?
[30:09]Yeah, thank you.
[30:09]I always should mention that more.
[30:11]It's a quote taken from persuasion by Jane Austen.
[30:15]The quote is, now they were strangers,
[30:18]nay, worse than strangers,
[30:19]but they can ever become reacquainted.
[30:21]I've always just loved that line.
[30:23]It's this idea of knowing someone,
[30:24]unknowing them in the same lifetime.
[30:26]And I like to think that it applies
[30:28]to a lot of relationships in the book.
[30:29]So the mother daughter's story, like you said,
[30:31]of like, you know someone so well
[30:33]and then you don't know these huge things about them.
[30:37]But the love stories in the book,
[30:38]about them becoming second chance,
[30:39]we acquainted.
[30:41]I mean, even like there is a plot in the second half
[30:43]about family and a larger sense of my spoils
[30:47]but some of like the other characters come back
[30:49]and their past, like their fathers
[30:51]and their forgiveness
[30:53]and like there's so much about like strangers
[30:55]and how much you know somebody.
[30:56]So I'm hoping that it's like a multi-purposeful title
[30:58]but a take-in from the Jane Austen quote, which I love.
[31:02]Come on, thank you, it's a great question.
[31:04]Yeah.
[31:05]Being a therapist, like do you find that that helps you
[31:09]with character, do you feel like that sometimes
[31:12]you can like get too deep into like the mindset
[31:16]of a character in such a community like kind of,
[31:19]yeah, second guess or like help the character in some way?
[31:23]Yeah, if you ask my editor,
[31:25]she probably say it hurts because I am like
[31:27]this is an interior already person.
[31:29]I could like just wax on for like 40 pages
[31:32]and she's like, no, no action.
[31:34]I'm like, okay.
[31:36]But I think the therapist like helps me as a person
[31:38]because I think it just makes me feel more grounded
[31:41]in the world and writing has become a really interesting job
[31:45]where there's so much like self-motion weirdness
[31:47]and like competition and reviews
[31:49]and like it can be really like isolating
[31:51]and kind of self-indulgent in some ways,
[31:54]annually self-harming,
[31:55]like it's just a really complicated middle ground,
[31:57]like narcissism and also like self-harming.
[31:59]Like so I think like that and I am in therapy
[32:02]and I'm like, oh, I love the world.
[32:04]Like I feel like I like love my clients.
[32:05]I love the work I'm doing.
[32:06]I feel connected to human beings.
[32:09]I think without that I might go crazy.
[32:11]So I'll probably have to come with their pets.
[32:13]They're good.
[32:14]They're good.
[32:15]I love it.
[32:18]Yeah, but I also think I was at I think like
[32:21]if you like psychology and if you like human minds
[32:23]and if you like your minds, you like reading.
[32:25]Like I think it's their natural marriage.
[32:27]So that helps too.
[32:28]Well, question which is,
[32:29]yeah, just for you to write it.
[32:30]Yeah, same kind of question.
[32:32]Do you feel like you're a part of it on yourself
[32:35]or do you feel like it just gives you the tools
[32:38]to write it?
[32:40]Yeah, it's so funny.
[32:41]I was teaching at this place called Gotham Writers
[32:44]in New York City and I was teaching memoir
[32:46]and that was really fun
[32:47]because that is basically group therapy in a lot of ways.
[32:49]So we're talking crap
[32:51]while we're also like really connecting with each other
[32:53]and people's stories.
[32:55]I'm now, I just co-founded a masters program
[32:57]at Boston College where I went to undergrad
[32:59]and that starts officially in September.
[33:02]I think actually all of us, it's coming up fast.
[33:05]And we're out here at first set of students
[33:07]and it's a masters in writing and a human condition
[33:10]is a name of it.
[33:11]So it's blending psychology and storytelling together
[33:14]and it's like people who have interests in both
[33:16]and want to kind of tell like more enriching stories
[33:18]and think about different angles.
[33:20]So that's kind of like my dream program
[33:22]where I feel that I'm feeling both sides
[33:24]and I'm hoping it's gonna be a lot of fun.
[33:26]Yeah, we're such a multi-hyphenator.
[33:28]Yeah.
[33:29]You're just like every 10 minutes
[33:30]you're just dropping another
[33:32]like ridiculously scared straw.
[33:35]Like what I invented in this education.
[33:37]Yeah.
[33:38]So we're fine with it.
[33:40]Yeah.
[33:41]I asked the therapist if you'd find that you,
[33:43]like a lot of people have some more stories
[33:45]or if you'd find that you were taking stories
[33:47]from my hand.
[33:49]I mean, there's only paper left.
[33:50]Yeah.
[33:52]And would that come in with there?
[33:55]Yeah.
[33:56]You know, it's funny.
[33:57]This one I wrote before I was full
[33:58]because I hadn't publishing it so long.
[33:59]I was not being a therapist at this point
[34:01]and I wrote this draft.
[34:02]So I would say definitely not for this book.
[34:05]I think, I don't think I take anything from my clients.
[34:07]I think that's an ethical and good, dangerous.
[34:10]But I do think you just see how much commonality everyone has.
[34:14]Like I'm a big believer if you get people alone
[34:16]in a room you talk to them,
[34:16]like you like people and like that is life affirming for me.
[34:20]So I think you have to show your clients
[34:22]like unconditional positive regard
[34:24]and that's like a very, I think, beautiful,
[34:25]experiential process.
[34:27]So I think I see the less similar themes
[34:29]like what we're all struggling with.
[34:30]You know, I think people are not that different.
[34:33]And that comes out with being writing a little bit
[34:35]of like where we're all insecure.
[34:38]We've a lot of lost somebody.
[34:39]There's just so many common themes you can connect on.
[34:41]And I pulled that I think into my writing.
[34:44]But yeah, it's a good question.
[34:46]Yeah.
[34:47]And I pushed them on a side of my relationship under here.
[34:50]I would say a publisher.
[34:51]But when it comes here now,
[34:53]like what happens when it comes to something
[34:55]that's like a number of reads,
[34:59]like what are you going to have to do with it?
[35:00]I don't know.
[35:01]It's mysterious.
[35:02]Yeah.
[35:03]I'm fortunate.
[35:04]I don't.
[35:05]I think it's a patent.
[35:06]What has your experience been?
[35:08]What are we talking before this at dinner?
[35:10]I was saying, Lauren's such a good marketing mind.
[35:13]Is it a good analytical mind?
[35:14]And I think I lacked that a little bit.
[35:16]Like, I'm a little bit of clouds.
[35:17]So I thought you'd probably a better answer than I do.
[35:20]But, you know, I think my nice answer is like, you find readers.
[35:24]You find an audience that enjoys it.
[35:26]You connect people.
[35:27]There's not like one metric that they're looking for.
[35:30]That they're telling us at least.
[35:31]There might be one secretly.
[35:32]I don't know.
[35:33]Yeah.
[35:34]I mean, it's sales.
[35:35]Yeah.
[35:36]I think there's definitely secret metrics.
[35:37]Yeah.
[35:38]But it's, I think it's the question.
[35:39]Like, I remember asking my agent this, like, very early on in the process.
[35:42]Where I was like, what do I need you to make my publisher happy?
[35:46]Yeah.
[35:47]And she is like, there are 10,000 different ways to make a publisher happy.
[35:51]And not all of them are being in your time's best seller, which I actually
[35:54]found to be like a very comforting answer.
[35:57]Like, literary fiction, unless you are like,
[36:00]Percival Everett, like you usually will not sell a million copies of your book.
[36:04]You bring prestige to your imprint.
[36:06]Right?
[36:07]Like, so you can, you can help them bend it in new direction.
[36:10]If we're trying to bring new sorts of readers to the house.
[36:13]Like, there are all sorts of things that you can do.
[36:16]Critical claim, like getting good trade reviews.
[36:20]Um, being interesting, like being famous, selling a lot of books.
[36:24]They do like when you do that.
[36:26]But I think it's like, um, there are a lot of different markers,
[36:31]like soft markers, I think for success.
[36:33]And I think you just, you just try to like a game of Pac-Man.
[36:37]You just hang up as many as you can.
[36:40]And then they will give me a mysterious secret grade in a meeting you won't
[36:44]be invited to.
[36:45]And then you'll see, you know?
[36:46]Yeah.
[36:47]Yeah.
[36:48]Yeah.
[36:49]Yeah.
[36:50]Yeah.
[36:51]Yeah.
[36:52]Yeah.
[36:53]It's different for everyone because first of all, our books are purchased.
[36:56]Like for different amounts of money.
[36:58]And different, different marketing, different print lines.
[37:01]So sometimes they make a million books.
[37:03]And sometimes they make a thousand.
[37:05]And so they have, you know, different budgets and expectations.
[37:08]Yeah.
[37:09]Yeah.
[37:10]Um, when you were in publishing, what were you looking for?
[37:12]Can you tell us?
[37:13]Yeah.
[37:14]Yeah.
[37:15]Yeah.
[37:16]Yeah.
[37:17]Yeah.
[37:18]Yeah.
[37:19]Yeah.
[37:20]Yeah.
[37:21]Yeah.
[37:22]Yeah.
[37:23]Yeah.
[37:24]Yeah.
[37:25]Yeah.
[37:26]Yeah.
[37:27]Yeah.
[37:28]Yeah.
[37:29]Yeah.
[37:30]Yeah.
[37:31]Yeah.
[37:32]Um, so I just, I know the book is this different.
[37:34]So I just didn't know, you know, like, why would they, this is, this is the
[37:37]the political side of, you know, being a business.
[37:39]Yeah.
[37:40]But, you know,
[37:41]you know,
[37:42]like,
[37:43]why would, you know, they pay for a book to be published.
[37:46]If it doesn't make it,
[37:47]that says as you sort of like the other marketing side of it.
[37:49]Yeah.
[37:50]Yeah.
[37:51]It's a good question.
[37:52]Yeah.
[37:53]I worked at Meredith.
[37:54]Yeah.
[37:55]Yeah.
[37:56]Um,
[37:57]I think that's funny too.
[37:58]And that has changed in terms of like, I think print media and like getting
[37:59]pressed from like the traditional like, um,
[38:02]I know arbiters of success and being like this is a good book.
[38:05]Like that has gone away.
[38:06]And kind of recently.
[38:07]I feel like not.
[38:08]I feel like it's fading away.
[38:09]Like,
[38:10]Yeah.
[38:11]It's like influencer culture.
[38:12]There's just a lot of long, different ways to sell books in a way.
[38:16]I think it's,
[38:17]there's never been a better time to publish because you don't need someone to say,
[38:22]yes,
[38:23]right.
[38:24]You don't need,
[38:25]didn't your times to cover your book.
[38:27]You do need people to read it.
[38:29]Yeah.
[38:30]So like the,
[38:31]the marketing job is like how much,
[38:32]how many copies of your book can they circulate early?
[38:35]To see if like when they throw it against a wall,
[38:38]if it shall stick.
[38:39]Yeah.
[38:40]I don't know.
[38:41]Yeah.
[38:42]Also, it's because it's art.
[38:43]So like you don't know what's going to do well in some ways.
[38:45]And it's just crazy.
[38:46]Yeah.
[38:47]Yeah.
[38:48]Like the correspondence.
[38:49]Anyone read that book?
[38:50]Yeah.
[38:51]Yeah.
[38:52]I feel like that's a great publishing success story.
[38:53]Sometimes it is just like,
[38:54]they're just like,
[38:55]yeah.
[38:56]Yeah.
[38:57]We had no idea.
[38:58]There's a lot of clients.
[38:59]Yeah.
[39:00]Yeah.
[39:01]Yeah.
[39:02]Yeah.
[39:03]Yeah.
[39:04]Yeah.
[39:05]So if you have a book,
[39:06]I'm like,
[39:07]I'm like,
[39:08]I'm like,
[39:09]I give that they made their staff already letter.
[39:11]Oh,
[39:12]see the first one is not letter.
[39:13]That's so cute.
[39:14]So why did you do that?
[39:15]I think the over like,
[39:16]I'm making them.
[39:17]Maybe they're big against fair amount or whatever it was.
[39:19]Yeah.
[39:20]That's,
[39:21]that's a small touch.
[39:22]That's very cute.
[39:23]I'm in a right lines gate a letter.
[39:25]Yeah.
[39:26]I like,
[39:27]I heard the letters.
[39:28]I heard,
[39:29]I heard,
[39:30]everybody.
[39:31]That's cute.
[39:32]Yeah.
[39:33]Did you ever get frustrated
[39:37]writing some of the characters?
[39:38]Like,
[39:39]like,
[39:40]the goal is to even die.
[39:41]I mean,
[39:42]do you just get it because it's like,
[39:43]important to the plot?
[39:44]Yeah.
[39:45]That's funny.
[39:46]I love that you read the book and you know that.
[39:48]I love that scene.
[39:49]Yeah.
[39:50]I think it's fun.
[39:51]It's like a such a hectic scene.
[39:53]And I think a lot of the book I wrote like many times
[39:56]over edited a lot.
[39:57]That scene for some reason was fully formed.
[39:59]I'd like to not.
[40:00]go with the mistakes. It was just like so chaotic. I feel like it's really like the climax of the book
[40:05]in a lot of ways. I felt frustrated definitely by the characters and I do not endorse their
[40:10]behaviors but I think I have a lot of empathy for them so I didn't like feel frustrated much as like
[40:17]empathetic or like anxious for them. But you do become like I remember writing that one having like
[40:23]like sweaty hands like I was like oh my god like it's tense like I felt that anxiety through the page.
[40:28]Yeah. It's a good question. Yeah. I took our time. We're at 650. Yeah.
[40:45]Yeah. I could. I hate reading. But I will do it. Should we do it? No, no, no.
[40:54]I could be a little bit of a prologue and then we'd run. Yeah, prologue. Sure. Also I'd be about
[40:59]noticed you. I'm terrible projecting my voice so I am sorry in advance. You can't hear me totally.
[41:06]So I will read. This is from the grandmother's perspective. That's how the book opens.
[41:10]So October 11th, 1998, Nantucket Island. We're great isn't passive. It's not something you can
[41:18]stuff away. Suppress deeper and deeper. The less you tend to it, the more it grows. I know a thing
[41:23]or two about regret. Life has been as good to me as it could bear to be. Better than most fair surely.
[41:29]But I still have had my fair share of disappointments and mistakes. Secret hopes dash before they could
[41:34]get running. None of that compares what I feel right now. The letter arrived this afternoon.
[41:40]The return address marked it from California. The post is jammed featuring the golden gate
[41:44]bridge against a sparkling navy sky. The words are wobbly at times as if the writer was rushed
[41:49]or emotional. But the message is clear as a bullet. It's too late. Stop there. It's too late.
[41:56]Yeah. Thanks, guys. We don't want you to. I had to do, I had to do my own audiobook for the memoir
[42:04]and that was the worst experience in my life. You have to do that. You kind of do. You can say no,
[42:09]but there it's. I feel like if I wrote a memoir they would change. Our Broadway will be like we've
[42:13]changed our policy. If I can do, you can do it. Trust me. Yeah. Thank you, guys. So much.
[42:20]This is so fun. Appreciate it.
[42:22]Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks, everybody.