Author Event! Joanna Schroeder & Jordan Reid

2025-09-19 · 44:34 · Joanna Schroeder and Jordan Reid · Bookshop Event

[0:00]Hi, hello, everyone. Welcome to Zennie's bookshop. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day and stopping by

[0:07]Learn about talk to your boys by Joanna Schroeder congratulations on

[0:14]And conversation back with Jordan read as well, so I'll go by

[0:20]So Joanna Schroeder is a writer editor and he a critic who is no verbal voice

[0:26]On parenting issues, she apparently serves as a managing editor of your tango

[0:30]Experts program where she works daily with psychologists top of all in experts like coaches and parenting consultants

[0:36]She then published a into the New York Times red book of housekeeping and squire the Boston Boston Globe

[0:42]You may have heard of these

[0:44]As appeared on TV and radio shows like red table talks, which is man

[0:48]Children's also the co-author of instructional publication empowering online's a conversation guy for interrupting

[0:54]extremist influence published in partnership with the Western State Center

[0:58]An opera profit organization, and she's a mother to be teenage sons and young daughter

[1:04]Jordan read grow up as a working actress in New York City and it's not even cognitive

[1:09]neuroscience at Harvard, but it's much

[1:11]The enormous the popular lifestyle site ramshackle glam where she wrote daily for nearly half a million readers and to your headed

[1:20]National campaigns for dozens of international brands

[1:23]She lives in Malibu and is currently working on her next book and insider

[1:26]Expo say on the rise of influencer culture and the emotional cost of participation in the system that turns women

[1:32]Brands motherhood into product and vulnerability

[1:36]It's just a short so true very impressive people

[1:46]So thank you so much for coming good evening. I know very I know many of you here

[1:51]It's very exciting to be celebrating the release of this incredible book. That's not just

[1:57]Great and a great read, but

[2:00]truly essential because I think we all know that we

[2:04]Are at a bit of an inflection point for young men and boys and this conversation is more relevant now than effort

[2:10]I mean the discourse online

[2:13]political events that are going on and

[2:17]You know, this is I'm the parent of a teenage boy as are you and so this is

[2:23]It's a very scary moment. I'm really glad that you can speak to this. So so my first question for you Joanna is

[2:30]What happens and is this new?

[2:33]Has this always been the case or is there something going on right now in this cultural moment?

[2:39]Well, I was as you know, it's familiar talk formally because I know 99.9% of you guys quite personally

[2:46]As you know, there's something very alluring for boys about the internet

[2:53]They they they are able to be who they want to be they are able to be emotional. They're available. They're able to tell the truth. They're available. They're able to have

[3:02]A new persona in a way that they the outside world doesn't allow so

[3:09]That going all the way back to AOL

[3:12]Messenger when a kid could have a user name and go on and start typing

[3:17]To now when they can disappear into video games and have a whole world

[3:22]That is changing them and in some ways it's changing them for the better

[3:26]You know, you hear about people our age who met on on aim and they were able to be themselves and they fell in love and they hadn't even met

[3:34]but it also

[3:37]Allows them to live without any accountability when they're online. Yes, and

[3:42]Any adolescent without accountability is in danger in some ways

[3:47]It's not a good time to be without structure and protection for people who care about you

[3:53]And I think there was a long time when kids were online a lot when parents

[3:59]Didn't know the risks of that

[4:02]So I think that's contributed to it hugely and then we also have a case where

[4:08]The boys who are now my boys age 17 20 all the way up to 25 and 30

[4:14]Masculinity changed right men were changing my husband changed a million diapers

[4:20]But my dad never changed one diaper

[4:22]My husband took time off when our babies were born

[4:24]He was lucky enough to do that. My father couldn't conceive of that

[4:28]you know and so

[4:30]Masculinity changed and a lot of these boys are growing up without a man who reflected what you need to be now in order to be a successful guy

[4:40]Like what does it mean to be a man that so like they're they they grew up with a man that was from

[4:47]Literally another century like us

[4:53]You are from another century and

[4:56]and

[4:57]That type of masculinity was

[5:00]not going to work for them in today's society,

[5:03]even if they were the captain of the football team.

[5:06]It, a different thing was expected.

[5:08]And I think they just got lost.

[5:10]And then of course we started on Powering Girls more,

[5:12]which is amazing.

[5:13]We love girl power, but it was like they just,

[5:17]we all assumed they'd be fine.

[5:19]Totally.

[5:20]Of course they'll be fine.

[5:21]Totally.

[5:22]And the rhetoric, especially like when the MeToo movement

[5:24]started happening, it felt so exciting.

[5:27]And I, I, it was.

[5:28]It was exciting, it continues to be exciting,

[5:31]but they have been with these younger boys,

[5:35]they don't have any breadth of experience.

[5:38]They didn't do anything wrong.

[5:39]And I do remember my son saying,

[5:43]am I bad because I'm a boy?

[5:45]And that's, that's, you know, it's wild

[5:49]because he does hear, you know, me ranting and raving

[5:52]about, you know, the male dominated culture.

[5:56]So how do you, how do you feel like this intersects

[5:59]with a feminist ideology?

[6:00]Because it, to me, it's very, very, very central

[6:03]to feminism.

[6:04]Yeah, but not everybody thinks that.

[6:07]Yeah.

[6:07]When I started writing about issues facing men and boys

[6:10]in 2011 or 2012, people were like,

[6:15]what's wrong with them?

[6:17]Like you don't have, they boys and men don't have any problems.

[6:19]And I was like, you're not listening.

[6:21]And to the point where like the feminists

[6:22]who were supposed to be my peers,

[6:24]actively were pushing against me saying, stop,

[6:27]stop talking about this.

[6:28]This is like taking attention away from girls.

[6:31]I think now it's pretty well understood

[6:33]that like it's not a pie.

[6:34]Like we can talk about boys and we can talk about girls.

[6:37]And in fact, when we're helping boys become healthier overall

[6:42]we're helping girls have partners and siblings

[6:45]and best friends that are healthier.

[6:48]You're going to be more present in their marriages,

[6:50]more present with their kids, more present in their,

[6:53]you know, less dangerous in society.

[6:56]And all goes together.

[6:58]And like we wrote in the book,

[7:00]we don't say the term toxic masculinity in this book

[7:03]like except to say that we don't say it.

[7:05]Because why is that?

[7:06]Well, that, so what happens when you've got a adolescent

[7:11]brain that is not wired for nuance, right?

[7:15]It's wired for like go out in the woods

[7:17]and hunt something and like, you know,

[7:20]we're still little, our brains are still a little bit

[7:22]like cave people.

[7:23]And so they're not wired to go,

[7:25]let me zoom out on this, this cultural phenomenon

[7:29]and understand all the different nuances.

[7:32]It's like they're like masculinity, that's me.

[7:34]I'm a boy.

[7:35]Right.

[7:36]Toxic, that's bad.

[7:37]Boys are bad.

[7:39]My mom thinks boys are bad.

[7:40]All the girls in my school think boys are bad.

[7:42]I'm hearing it on the news.

[7:45]I feel shame for nothing.

[7:46]And as we know shame in young people often turns too rage.

[7:50]Shame in old people too.

[7:53]It's just a natural evolution of the feeling of shame.

[7:56]So no, we can talk about toxic masculinity in academia.

[8:02]We can talk to you and I could talk about it over coffee.

[8:04]But when we're talking to kids,

[8:06]it's just too confusing.

[8:08]And we don't want to take any gender and say they're all bad.

[8:12]No, yeah.

[8:13]And yet, certainly not with kids, are you kidding me?

[8:17]No, of course, I was just reading an article this morning

[8:19]and it was like the boys are saying, you know,

[8:24]what does feminism doing to protect me?

[8:26]I need protection too.

[8:28]And in general, we dismiss this feeling.

[8:31]Protect you after what you've spent centuries

[8:34]doing to us.

[8:35]Protect yourself, asshole.

[8:37]And that's what the author was arguing against that.

[8:41]But that was the message for a long time.

[8:43]That wasn't necessarily you don't matter.

[8:46]You don't matter.

[8:47]And you already took over, but they didn't.

[8:49]Okay, we're babies.

[8:50]Yeah, there's another big thing that happens.

[8:53]Like we have to remember that for generations of men,

[8:57]showing a soft emotional sign was literally dangerous for their lives.

[9:03]Like if you cried and you're a 10-year-old boy,

[9:05]your dad probably had an obligation to backhand you

[9:10]or just tell you to shut up.

[9:12]That was because it was dangerous.

[9:14]So like when we talk with generational trauma,

[9:17]there's generational trauma from men

[9:21]trying to protect their sons from seeming effeminate,

[9:25]seeming weak to help them survive.

[9:28]Now they don't need to do that.

[9:30]Now, imagine this, like, changing the world.

[9:34]Do you, has it changed?

[9:36]Well, it's changed for our boys.

[9:38]Like, I feel that, but I also worry that we're in this

[9:43]enclave of sort of, it's not, you know,

[9:47]we're in LA.

[9:49]Like, I mean, it's a little bit, a lot different.

[9:52]And I just do, do you actually think it's changing

[9:56]in the broader sense of the world?

[9:58]I do.

[9:59]I do.

[10:00]think it's changing I think it's not changing fast enough but like we were

[10:05]watching something we're watching I can't remember but there was a very

[10:10]typical portrayal of a bully and a bully kid like the kind from when we were

[10:15]young like from the Christmas story the movie the Christmas and or like the

[10:19]from back to the future okay these were our bullies right and it would never

[10:24]ever ever be allowed to happen now it maybe in like backwards Arkansas

[10:30]but no they stop bullying in the schools now yeah they stop bullying when

[10:35]it's like that when it's like that it was puny didn't picked on by all the

[10:40]football players it's an amazing revolution the bullying is just much more

[10:45]insidious now it's like identity based and it's much more complicated and harder

[10:51]to address in some ways but like in general if you just think that we were

[10:58]tracking for a while how many men were doing childcare or housework in ads

[11:05]on TV in 2010 to 2014 like there was a project we were tracking it through the

[11:09]good men project where used to work and it was like wow there's four ads on TV

[11:14]this year where men were doing childcare and a housework like what a

[11:19]revelation right and is that locked does that door lock but you see you see

[11:27]the the a jury with which I am like oh yeah man and that's also a problem yeah

[11:32]that that doesn't help doesn't help we're among friends here so we can have

[11:36]that tone but that tone doesn't help because yeah in at that time there were

[11:40]four when there had been zero and now any ad you watch there's one with a woman

[11:45]doing laundry and then maybe the next one has a man that's changing and so

[11:50]it's no longer this you know a pure expectation of that but we're in the

[11:57]shift because like I said the dads are still generation acts and elder

[12:02]millennials who were raised with that prescriptive thing yeah it's it's I do

[12:09]not envy the dads of this era because I feel like there's there's they see

[12:14]like how how how do you know what to do how do you know how to parent um so

[12:21]I wanted to ask you about I think probably top of mind for everyone who's the

[12:28]parent of a young boys tech and I was just with the recent events with Charlie

[12:35]Kirk my son of the week before this happened he brought up Charlie Kirk

[12:43]right I was I I don't follow him so I don't know and that wasn't something

[12:47]that I would have had any idea that seems so like about politics I'm like

[12:52]myself watching what yeah and this happens several years ago with Andrew

[12:56]Tate videos where he was being exposed to things that I like I didn't even I

[13:03]was yeah I was a flabberg acid yeah and how we have a you know working dialogue

[13:10]around this the topic but what do we do so the most important thing that

[13:17]we've learned and I started working on this in 2018 as you know when I

[13:21]figured out that there were all these weights of premises there were

[13:26]actually actively looking for young lost white boys online yes to indoctrinate

[13:31]which sounded crazy at the time and now it's so mainstream right my big thing is

[13:36]this anytime that we say to a kid that's bad you shouldn't do it

[13:43]hmm yeah they're gonna be like let's go do it do it yeah if for instance

[13:50]let's say that that your son came to you two weeks ago before this before

[13:56]Charlie Kirk was dead and I'm gonna leave politics entirely out of it but

[13:59]said I know I have a big note here don't do it and said to you

[14:06]mom this is what I heard Charlie Kirk said online and it was horrible let's

[14:11]just say look totally against your values right you and I both might have the

[14:17]same reaction to be like who's this this is a shit like we're both firing and we

[14:23]stand up for ourselves so that instinct is so strong in us that to be like river

[14:28]why would you even think that that's okay that's what I did when I saw he was

[14:34]he's at Greta Tunberg came up in conversation he goes oh I hate her and I was

[14:38]like and he was like yeah and he was right fifth grade he doesn't have any ideas

[14:44]yes someone said that and but the anger on my face yeah it's scared

[14:49]that oh it didn't you know but he was just like oh I was like I didn't really

[14:53]bad yeah but he didn't yeah he didn't he just heard a thing so that's the whole

[14:57]thing ultimately is it's like

[15:00]like, we get to take a beat and be like,

[15:03]let's talk about Greta Thumburg.

[15:05]What have you heard and what do you think?

[15:07]Or let's talk about Andrew Tate,

[15:09]like the reactions that parents have to Andrew Tate

[15:12]are so oversized, even though, of course,

[15:14]we don't like him, but I think we automatically think,

[15:18]well, now my child's gonna do murder.

[15:21]Like, he's going to prison.

[15:23]He's been in doctrine.

[15:24]In reality, it's like the most important question is,

[15:27]tell me what's interesting about Andrew Tate.

[15:30]Tell me what's interesting about,

[15:32]what did Charlie Kirk do that was so interesting

[15:35]that you saw?

[15:36]What did you find compelling about that argument?

[15:38]Yeah.

[15:39]And a compelling point

[15:40]does not necessarily translate to a

[15:43]over-archingly positive worldview

[15:45]that we want to follow.

[15:46]No, that's okay.

[15:47]But the reality is the other thing

[15:48]that we have to realize as parents,

[15:50]what we might not know is

[15:51]everyone has a different reality in their timelines.

[15:55]So when Charlie Kirk was shot

[15:57]and I'm only using this because it's a great example,

[15:59]Sabrina from our company and I were texting

[16:02]and I was like, he's like,

[16:04]why would he want to want to tell?

[16:05]He's so dumb.

[16:06]He loses every debate he's in

[16:08]and she's like, he wins every debate he's in, right?

[16:11]And I was like, what?

[16:12]And then I realized her timeline was showing his,

[16:15]yes ma'am, his victories.

[16:16]My timeline was showing him losing.

[16:18]I had no idea any reality about him.

[16:22]Yes, I looked at my son's for you page

[16:24]and I was like, oh my God, he wins every day.

[16:26]Yes, exactly.

[16:27]They're seeing a different thing.

[16:28]And so when I'm like, what's wrong with my son

[16:30]that he likes this guy?

[16:31]Well, actually he's seeing a guy who's really good at debate.

[16:33]He's really open-minded, who brings people on stage

[16:36]and talks about things they're not supposed to talk about.

[16:38]Adolescent love to talk about things

[16:41]they're not supposed to talk about.

[16:43]So this dude's living the dream to these boys.

[16:47]And so then it becomes, I love that.

[16:49]You like this guy that is bringing people together to talk.

[16:53]Here's what I've learned about him

[16:55]that I'm uncomfortable with.

[16:56]Okay, like this, he says that, you know, whatever it is.

[17:00]And this makes me think like what if you had a friend

[17:02]that, you know, you bring empathy to it.

[17:04]He's saying this about black people.

[17:06]What if you imagine your friend who's black,

[17:09]here's that, how is he gonna feel, you know,

[17:11]bringing empathy into it then?

[17:14]So that your kid doesn't feel like crap.

[17:17]Yeah.

[17:17]For having bought him for having-

[17:19]So show him by wrong.

[17:21]I'm done.

[17:22]Showed him the best parts.

[17:23]Who can blame him?

[17:24]So if I can just, so you're basically saying,

[17:29]and I think this is what I believe too,

[17:32]we can't stop them from seeing.

[17:35]There's no, there's no amazing solution

[17:37]where we get to just like turn all of this off.

[17:40]They're gonna see it.

[17:41]It is.

[17:41]Oh.

[17:42]And I believe in video games,

[17:44]which is a big thing if you have kids that are boys

[17:46]or girls that like the new games.

[17:48]It's like the moment that your hackles go,

[17:52]I could hear that Fortnite sound in my house.

[17:55]I'd be like, whoo,

[17:57]I'm sure my house at the same time.

[17:58]My son plays a game where he reaches into somebody's mouth

[18:01]and pulls out their intestines and then stabs them

[18:05]with an axe.

[18:06]Yes, that's great.

[18:07]That's fun.

[18:09]This is a thing.

[18:12]Cara writes about it so well in decoding boys,

[18:14]if anyone needs a book about another book about boys.

[18:18]The reality is playing a video game is not gonna make

[18:21]your kid into a murderer, right?

[18:23]Playing too many video games has been shown

[18:27]to desensitize them to violence.

[18:29]So they're so used to seeing bodies in blood and death

[18:33]and whatever, that then they see a portrait of a war zone

[18:38]or something and they might be like,

[18:40]oh, I'm familiar with that.

[18:41]That's just, it's desensitized, right?

[18:44]I've been thinking about my son's about to turn 14.

[18:47]There's, you know, September 11th documentary, yes.

[18:50]and World War II documentaries that I want to show him.

[18:52]And I'm like, that's so painful,

[18:56]but he'll be fine.

[18:58]Like he can watch that in a way that my daughter can't.

[19:01]Oh, yeah, she would have a very different reaction.

[19:04]So in the, in the, in the, not the conversation too.

[19:07]Like I'm a big fan of just having the conversation like,

[19:10]if I had seen this from 9-11 when someone was falling

[19:13]out of this building and when I did see it,

[19:16]I was so upset.

[19:17]This might be different for you because of video games

[19:19]that I want to underline that this was somebody's son, right?

[19:22]Or someone's daughter and someone's husband or wife.

[19:25]And I just, I'm not trying to make you feel

[19:27]but I don't want you to feel crappy,

[19:28]but it can be so easy for us.

[19:31]And the other thing is I like you using us language.

[19:33]You kids who play video games are desensitized,

[19:36]but like it can be so easy for us with the media

[19:38]that we consume to be desensitized to something like that.

[19:43]But it's part of history and it was an enormous time

[19:46]when we were all grieving or whatever.

[19:48]Sure.

[19:49]I don't like the thing where it's like,

[19:50]you guys in your generation,

[19:52]it's more like, this is what we're doing right now

[19:54]with the media we have.

[19:55]So how do we know, um,

[19:58]how, you.

[20:00]You know, there's the trope that boys don't talk and boys don't share their emotions

[20:04]and kind of, yeah, you know, a little bit.

[20:10]How do we know when to pull the alarm?

[20:13]We have like a very long comprehensive quote in here from an adolescent psychologist and

[20:19]addiction specialist that is the better one, but basically when their lives are really

[20:25]disrupted.

[20:26]and this is boys, girls, you and me, that when the things that brought them joy are no

[20:33]longer in their lives and they haven't been replaced with something.

[20:36]So they love baseball.

[20:37]They're not going to love baseball forever.

[20:39]Maybe then they do like video games and it brings them joy and they're using it a moderate

[20:43]way or maybe they used to hang out with all these one little kids.

[20:46]Now they have one best friend who's like a dog or something, you know, like a totally

[20:50]different thing.

[20:51]It's that loss of a source of joy without replacing it with something else that's fulfilling

[20:57]to them, right?

[20:58]And then things like when they're not changing their clothes the way they did and they

[21:03]smell bad and they're not, they don't care.

[21:05]Oh dear, that's it.

[21:06]That's all right.

[21:07]But your son's probably in the face of extra showers and lots of clums, not yet.

[21:13]Yes.

[21:14]So that's normal too.

[21:15]It goes from smell, that's how it smells horrible.

[21:19]Yeah.

[21:20]It smells very perfumed and then they even out, right?

[21:23]How did you know?

[21:24]I know.

[21:25]It's almost like you wrote a book about this.

[21:27]Yeah.

[21:28]So but like the same hoodie for two weeks or like, you know, we know what it looks like

[21:33]to be depressed most of us and it is and then you just talk to the doctor and then I

[21:37]have a great, one of my favorite tools that we have in here is a great way to get through

[21:42]a boy, even a very traditional boy from a very traditional family is he's having a hard

[21:47]time.

[21:48]You say, if something's wrong with the sink and I don't know how to fix it, I call a plumber

[21:53]because the plumber is a specialist in plumbing.

[21:57]If something's going on with your feelings and it's too big of a problem for you and I

[22:01]to handle, we go to a therapist or go to the rabbi or go to your pastor or whoever,

[22:07]you school counselors are amazing under under, absolutely underutilized.

[22:12]Utilized, incredible.

[22:15]We go to them because that's what they did.

[22:16]They studied that and they know our brains and our bodies, the way a plumber knows the pipes.

[22:22]And it's so obvious when you say it like that, but then the kid is like, oh, it's not

[22:26]just crazy people like this isn't, you know, like this is a specialist in this thing,

[22:31]just like a plumber.

[22:32]And there's no shame.

[22:33]No, it's just no shame.

[22:34]And also a lot of people go to therapy that never talk about it.

[22:37]So you might think it's just crazy people or depressed people, but that's because those

[22:41]are the ones that are talking about it more.

[22:42]So fascinating.

[22:44]Um, yes, it's like the dichotomy between the, they don't share their feelings, but they

[22:51]need extra sort of encouragement to do that.

[22:55]The other thing starting from, yeah, I guess a young age and talking some about that.

[22:59]Well, that's the, one of my favorite tools also is that, um, and we can all be doing

[23:06]this no matter who our kids are is when you're feeling a big feeling, mm-hmm, name it

[23:12]and explain how you're going to handle it.

[23:14]So like for me, it's road rage, it's a great time to talk to the kids about, oh my God.

[23:20]Yeah, I just cut me off.

[23:23]I'm so pissed right now, I'm so tempted to flip this guy to the birds.

[23:29]I'm not going to do it, I'm going to take a breath because I know it's not going to get

[23:34]me anywhere.

[23:35]I'm not going to flip in the bird.

[23:37]He can go that way.

[23:38]Okay, I feel better.

[23:40]You just taught your kid out of feel a big thing.

[23:43]Goodness.

[23:44]I actually taught my kid the other day.

[23:45]I was like, and then he's like, yeah, I've done it.

[23:49]I've done it.

[23:50]Um, we have a famous story about when Bowdoin was little in the car with Ian.

[23:55]And he may have heard somebody using road rage and a guy drove by and cut him off and

[23:59]against him, put the hack and bone and said, shove it up my ass.

[24:03]No, actually, what I said, you know, when we did this, actually, the driver was like,

[24:08]okay.

[24:09]Yeah.

[24:10]And it was fun.

[24:11]And we have a little moment of future reality.

[24:12]We all have road rage.

[24:13]You live in LA.

[24:14]It's a great example.

[24:15]It's a great time to just, you're going to process your emotions and it's so, you don't

[24:21]have to be like, children gather round.

[24:23]Well, let's talk about my feelings, right?

[24:26]It's like, don't put that pressure around.

[24:28]I'm so pissed.

[24:29]Yeah.

[24:30]You can take a breath.

[24:31]Yeah.

[24:32]Let's put on a song.

[24:33]Mm-hmm.

[24:34]Let's listen to our favorite song.

[24:35]Let's put jam to Benson bun.

[24:37]Let's just chill out for a minute.

[24:38]So to that end, um, you know, a lot of our boys grew up, uh, or, I mean, in our generation,

[24:44]grew up being told, punch a pillow, yeah, go to the gym, get out of your question.

[24:47]Yeah.

[24:48]And if you're really mad, what does that look like given in the context of what we know now?

[24:53]Well, it's really interesting because recent research has shown that not everybody

[24:58]feels better after punching a pillow.

[25:00]So this was the advice when my brother was angry.

[25:02]My mom actually had someone hang up

[25:04]a punching bag in the basement.

[25:06]It was really good for him.

[25:07]I think because it was a lot of cardio

[25:09]and a lot of physical activity and just a thing to do

[25:13]when he was upset.

[25:14]The dwarfens and all that.

[25:14]But like they did this thing work for some kids,

[25:18]especially adolescents, going and punching something

[25:20]can actually make the anger and the rage worse.

[25:23]It's like reinforcing to the body and the brain.

[25:27]Yes, I'm angry.

[25:28]I'm angry.

[25:29]I'm doing angry.

[25:30]Like we know when we're having anxiety,

[25:32]we have to do relaxed things.

[25:33]So our bodies know where we live, right?

[25:36]Our bodies are going to teach our brain to be chill.

[25:39]If some, for some people punching a pillow

[25:42]or going out and kicking the soccer ball

[25:44]really, really, really hard in an angry way

[25:46]is just reinforcing an angry, I'm angry, I'm angry,

[25:48]I'm angry, I'm angry.

[25:49]And then for that kid, if it seems like that's what's happening,

[25:52]it might be better to put on a song that he loves

[25:56]or just be like, let's go watch a movie

[25:58]or let's go watch your favorite show

[26:00]or let's watch Transformers for the eight billionth time

[26:02]or whatever he likes, get him to calm down.

[26:06]And then you can be like, what were you feeling right then?

[26:09]Because you were angry and I understand

[26:11]but like, what was that like?

[26:13]And then we talked about that.

[26:15]For younger kids, my daughter, she created a convox.

[26:20]And it's literally a box that's decorated

[26:23]and she just put in things that make her feel calm.

[26:26]Oh, I know, I lost that lovely and a calm box.

[26:30]I know, it's got like a squishy, like a nice smelling thing.

[26:34]Oh, squishy, calm.

[26:35]Let me check the time, I don't want to, oh yeah.

[26:38]So let me ask you one last question.

[26:40]So this book is really challenging

[26:45]long-standing cultural assumptions about masculinity

[26:48]what it means to be a man.

[26:48]So it's a very big topic.

[26:53]If I could ask you what is one thing five years from now,

[26:57]if you could say, I hope that this shifts.

[27:00]Let's go five years into the future.

[27:03]What is something that you think?

[27:05]Oh my God, that's a stupid question.

[27:06]I know it's a big one.

[27:08]It's a big one.

[27:09]It's very big, George.

[27:10]I know, I'm sorry.

[27:12]But you can also pick a lane, like in media,

[27:14]in education, in, I'll tell you what I'd like to see.

[27:17]I'd like to see.

[27:19]I would like it to be safe for boys and men

[27:23]to talk about their feelings with their friends.

[27:25]That would be my dream, or their brothers, or their fathers,

[27:29]or their mothers, whoever.

[27:31]What's happening right now is so many women

[27:33]who are in relationships with men, or girls

[27:35]that are having boyfriends in high school and middle school

[27:37]is the only place they have to really let it out

[27:41]is with their girlfriends or their wives.

[27:43]So your guy comes home and it is every feeling

[27:47]he had all day long, plus his childhood trauma,

[27:51]plus what his grandfather did, plus it's all poop.

[27:54]Right there.

[27:55]There's no more else.

[27:56]And it's an enormous burden, whereas I might call you

[27:59]and be like, drawing him so pissed.

[28:01]And then by the time he found get somebody only,

[28:02]I have a few words that I have to share with him.

[28:04]You know what I mean?

[28:05]Do you know that my son asked me?

[28:07]He said, he heard me talking to my friends about feelings.

[28:12]And I was sobbing.

[28:14]And I came out and I was like, I'm fine, I'm fine.

[28:15]I'm just like having feelings.

[28:16]And he was like, so you call your friends

[28:19]and you guys just cry?

[28:20]Oh, I didn't cry.

[28:21]Why?

[28:22]And I was like, oh, what do you mean?

[28:26]Like, what do you mean?

[28:27]Why?

[28:28]Yeah.

[28:29]And what I keep hearing is happening is that we get

[28:33]these boys who are finally able to talk to somebody

[28:36]when they get their girlfriend at 14 or 16 or whatever.

[28:40]And then those relationships are not likely to last.

[28:44]But then that boy's not just losing his girlfriend.

[28:46]He's losing his only source of emotional support.

[28:51]And that's when we start seeing these suicide threats.

[28:54]And then all of a sudden, you've got it.

[28:57]That's not OK for the girl.

[28:58]It's all anality.

[28:59]So I would love to have boys feel OK.

[29:04]Just calling their bros.

[29:06]Do you call your bro?

[29:08]Have a little conversation.

[29:09]Jamie laughed.

[29:10]You don't even have to tell anybody else.

[29:12]I feel like Josh is good at that one.

[29:14]There is just this final thing when they show

[29:17]bro men calling their bros at 8 o'clock.

[29:19]Oh, yeah.

[29:20]And they're like, hey, say, say goodnight, yes.

[29:23]And the men think they're in almost universally.

[29:26]Their friends think they're dying.

[29:28]The friends are like, bro, I'm coming over.

[29:31]Because they're like, why are you saying I love you?

[29:33]You're clearly about to die.

[29:35]And that says, oh, much.

[29:37]God, it's, it's, it's, yes, it does.

[29:39]It really does.

[29:40]It's wild.

[29:41]Yeah.

[29:42]And like my friend, Blue was telling me, since his dad died,

[29:45]he's like, I don't have anyone to call on the phone.

[29:46]I just have my wife.

[29:48]I talked to my dad every day.

[29:49]Now I call Cassidy.

[29:50]She's really busy.

[29:51]He's like, I don't know who to call.

[29:52]And as women, we do, you know, lucky us to have these resources.

[29:57]And I'll tell you, I had an instinct to be like,

[29:58]you can call me, Blue.

[29:59]And then I was like,

[30:00]know I can't if that's not my husband that is someone else's husband like I just wanted to be like

[30:05]it would be weird if blue was calling me just to talk about his feet I don't know if you can call

[30:11]me no it might be weird if it was the Cassidy's random husband um but that's that's that would

[30:18]be a dream for me yeah that like river and his friends and voting and his friends could

[30:24]yeah could call each other and just be like yes things are so hard right now my girlfriend don't

[30:28]me or I don't know what to do with my whatever yes um Joanna thank you so thank you so much um for

[30:36]not just being here tonight but creating this book that is not like I said it's not just it's really

[30:41]a fun read actually yeah I was gonna read you guys a couple quotes from our boys we had 80 boys

[30:48]ages 10 to 22 that we interviewed and they are wild children what was that tell me a couple of

[30:55]the quotes that you first because I think what every time I hear from anyone who's read it is

[31:01]they're like the quotes from the boys from my favorite part so they are self-selecting so there's

[31:05]not a lot of boys that aren't thinking deeply not every boy is going to think deeply that's

[31:10]okay no and not everybody is going to agree to an interview right exactly I I I have one son who would

[31:15]do that I have one that would be like why would I ever do that so you know if your boy is not

[31:20]thinking these things please no that's normal um so this is an 18-year-old who said I keep a lot of

[31:26]feelings to myself because I don't really know how to talk about it I don't really even know how

[31:31]to express it besides destroying stuff I worry that one day I'll fully lose it and do something

[31:35]I'll really regret my dad goes by the idea that men don't cry and that's heavily affected me

[31:40]I wish adults would support their children through hard times and help them express their feelings

[31:45]the 18-year-old said like really beautiful things like that um and some of them were really funny

[31:50]the younger kids love to tell us that their parents need to give them more video game time

[31:56]um this is one of my favorites we asked the boys what could your parents do differently that would

[32:02]make you more likely to talk openly with them and um James said he was 21 when he said this

[32:08]it would be good if maybe they were more open about their struggles and hardships at any age

[32:13]without that there's a kind of a family myth as my therapist calls it about how my parents made it

[32:19]to where they are if they open up about their struggles in light make it easier for me to open up

[32:23]and feel better about myself so sweet some of them are funny though I promise they're not serious

[32:30]beautiful boy yeah beautiful boy it's a little memoir yeah so the question is do we share

[32:36]if we have done drugs oh do we share our struggles or is that you know putting the idea in their

[32:43]head that that's fine and we survived so yeah you know what I don't even necessarily feel

[32:47]qualified to answer that can I ask Cara sorry Cara's a pediatrician what do you think is the best way

[32:53]to handle that yeah the plan or answer say I you know here's what I'm comfortable sharing now

[33:20]yes when you're older we'll talk more but yeah and look up and for how wild you really were

[33:28]not us no all right so I guess let's open it up for a few questions yeah anyone has anything

[33:38]that they want to ask I also want to add that one good thing and I wanted to get this in quickly

[33:42]was that some kids do really well expressing their feelings through writing and that's why I love

[33:47]Jordan's workbooks because sometimes having a little kid to work through it with you or you give

[33:52]them one of the anxiety workbooks if they're having anxiety sometimes they need to just

[33:58]write yeah doodle or move their their obsessing on something move that part of the brain

[34:03]start you know move it out of that obsessive part of the brain and write it down in a journal

[34:07]in your notes app yeah getting an activity book where you can also doodle or word search or whatever

[34:13]it was actually writing this I would give my kids early editions and like you like and the conversation

[34:21]not in like I don't think you could book but like the conversations that it opened up

[34:25]I'm doing dropped my job like they it gave them tools like like is my you know is my personal

[34:32]fire alarm going off like what color do I feel like yeah those kinds of things that yeah and with

[34:38]boys yeah we talk about it in the book with boys Terry real who's like a special

[34:43]depression at the time when he wrote the book was basically like a lot of men you say how do

[34:47]you feel they'll be like bad fine nothing right and so he'd say what do you feel in your body do

[34:53]you feel anything in your in your neck you feel anything in your chest and then they'll be like yeah

[34:57]my neck feels really hot at your neck

[35:00]feels hot, it feels tight. Sometimes for me, that means that I'm sad. Sometimes I feel

[35:06]that right before I cry. Or your chest feels like that might be stress. So identifying

[35:11]the body parts can be really helpful too, because a lot of Mars not trained to.

[35:16]I wasn't trained until like five years ago when I finally did therapy. That helps.

[35:22]Okay, does anybody have questions? Emily does.

[35:29]So like in a society where in part, it feels like there is success toward it to people that

[35:37]appear, you know, like very opposed. It's all milestones and goals and tasks. How do you balance

[35:45]that with, you know, what is your take on the reality, you know, and instead of freezing

[35:53]over reality, like just maintaining a state like that? There's a great exercise by this guy,

[35:58]Ashanti Branch, who who develops and runs boys programs. And it's about the masks. So

[36:04]the basic ideas were all wearing masks. We're all wearing masks in here right now,

[36:09]because like you can't just come in here and unload all your stuff. And we know that when

[36:15]when I go home and even on the couch and I get to just sit next to him and relax, then all the

[36:21]feelings come out. But if I'm in here and I'm talking to the booksellers about ordering books,

[36:26]that's a mask. And we all have them and they're not unhealthy. They're healthy. You need to have

[36:31]your mask. You go out into the football locker room. You can tell I know a lot about sports.

[36:36]Go out into the football locker room. We're a football star. And you have to have a mask of toughness

[36:43]on. That's okay. Yeah. When you go to work, you're not blubbering at every little thing that goes

[36:49]wrong. That's okay. And that's the skill to teach our boys. Here's one mask for home. Here's one

[36:54]mask for this friend. Here's one mask for this friend. Here's one mask at work. These are skills. And

[37:00]it's just as important a lesson as anything else, right? But you can't have that one mask on

[37:05]all the time if you surround yourself with people who you have your your your sickest, most opaque

[37:11]mask on, then you're never going to be able to let it out. So helpful. Fantastic. Tom. This is

[37:19]a RIP record. Who are the first really good role models for Ashley Cool for, to push my team that

[37:30]used to that. That's a fantastic question. Actually cool. Yeah, I know so many masculine

[37:39]nerds that I don't know if teenagers would think they were cool. I know. I'm like, he on a reads,

[37:43]right? And they're like, he on who reads is great. But they're like the real problem. Tom Holland. Tom Holland

[37:49]has some really beautiful thing about that. I like Tom. I like question. I had a story because I know

[37:54]there are some and I've had it in my head. I'll tell you what I want to time googled for your

[37:59]tangle articles editing like famous men who use meditation. And I was like, oh my god, there's all

[38:07]these really famous men that meditate. And then I was like, famous men that go to therapy. I feel

[38:12]like I would just Google that like men who talk about emotions. I mean, I mean, there's a lot

[38:17]of them. Like I my 13 year old is not going to read Alan Watts, but like maybe in a couple years

[38:22]you will. Yeah. I find that him tremendously. Well, Tommy and I both listened to the blocks podcast

[38:30]religiously. That's Neil Brennan. He's a comedian. He has other comedians or performers on and they

[38:34]literally go there just to talk about the things that hurt their feelings and their emotional

[38:41]blocks against stuff. And I have played sections of that for my boys before. And generally

[38:45]all of you want it are pretty cool. I think there's also a really beautiful rabbit like thing

[38:50]happening online. I keep seeing these young songwriters. I posted a couple of them. I don't know if

[38:57]and it's these young men who have created songs and are talented. And they're creating songs

[39:06]about like gun violence and about how they feel. And I just every time I see when I just

[39:11]shoot it up. Oh, yeah. This, this, this, this. Yeah. It's press. You're feeling great.

[39:16]He opens on Isaac. Yeah. He would. I said, did you open it? He said, no. Yeah. Oh, but yeah.

[39:22]Yeah. Isaac admitted on camera when we were doing an interview. I don't look at your

[39:27]videos. You send me, because you send me 25 a day. That's what Isaac said. My children asked me

[39:32]if I write about parenting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They, and to some, I don't send it. You should write

[39:38]about parenting. You're like, okay. Well, thanks to you care zero. But that's normal. You don't want

[39:46]them to worry about it, right? But like, yeah, I, yeah, I do text my kids and I'll be like, watch the

[39:51]Instagram. I sent you one minute ago. Otherwise they won't do it. But yeah, I still think it means

[39:55]something to them. Mom's thinking of me. Especially. Yeah. You can't just send them alarmists.

[39:59]Have you also have to send?

[40:00]them snakes and toads and lizards and stuff. Oh, I like if that's their thing. I love that.

[40:06]Okay, bye, Kara. Does anybody else have questions? Hopefully not for a pediatrician because she

[40:12]just left. Okay, Jamie. So it's a little early as a seven-year-old, and you know, and she's already

[40:21]asked me long when I have a phone. Okay. And what I have heard, like just around is waiting

[40:29]until 8th. I like wait till 8th, personally, yeah, 8th, but right or 8th. But here's the thing,

[40:36]there are major exceptions to that. Your kids go between households. Yes, they need a phone.

[40:41]They do. And if you want a fair safety and security, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, they're

[40:45]Absolutely. Yeah. There are phones for that too, and they can get a watch. But also, you know

[40:51]your kid. So my thing, so Jonathan height right now is so famous for saying they shouldn't have

[40:58]social media ever until they're 16th. Yeah, the anxious generation. And I just disagree.

[41:03]And I disagree because our kids, when they're young, every year, we have influence over them.

[41:10]When they're two, everything we say is the gospel truth. When they're when they're 10, it's

[41:15]mostly true. I trust mom, but I'm going to verify when they're 16, it's like mom's so dumb.

[41:20]And so if you want them to learn a skill, you need to start early. So if you give a kid a phone

[41:27]at 16, they call it the age of influence. They're already almost out of the age of influence.

[41:32]They don't come back into it until they're like 22. Right. They don't bring you those videos and say,

[41:36]what is this? Like mom, look at these naked people. I saw what's happening. And you'd rather,

[41:42]yes, because why would they ever show you? They're also worried. They're also clever enough to know

[41:46]that you'll take the phone away. If you know they saw some horrible garbage. So ultimately,

[41:53]I like eighth grade for social media, but I'll tell you what I did with the boys in fifth grade.

[41:58]Instagram was a big thing. And I gave them an Instagram on my phone. So it was like I could toggle

[42:03]between my account and their account. So they, can I have Instagram time? Yes, switch it to

[42:07]Bowden's account. And I give it to him. That's a good idea. Yeah. And then he could use it

[42:12]and look through. And he would know I could see all his likes. I could see his DM's. And I could do

[42:17]that when he wasn't on it. So one girl was DMing him at 1 a.m. all the time. And he was in like

[42:25]six or seven afraid. And it was pinging on my phone. Right. Time except for so if he was

[42:31]likely. So right. So at that point, it's like, I go into Bowden and I say, this girl is, is

[42:39]taxing you a lot. And I don't, I can't do anything about her taxing at 1 a.m. I don't know her

[42:45]parents well. But I would like for you to say, hey, I'm not allowed to get DM's after 9 p.m.

[42:54]I know, you know, whatever, like he's protecting, he's learning to set a boundary. I don't know

[42:59]if he did. I mean, I think he did learn that. And also I can see if he's like, I can go through

[43:05]and look at his likes. And if it's something that that's going to be, he doesn't understand the

[43:09]context, like when one of my sons liked a like a Nazi propaganda without knowing what it was.

[43:15]It's a famous story now. And I was able to be like, I want you to understand the context of this.

[43:21]So I like having them have it. And depending on how mature they are, Bowden's a little brother

[43:26]and the little siblings are so mature. I like them having it in fifth grade. And then they

[43:32]didn't really have it on a, maybe they had it on a tablet. I wanted them to have the skill. So one of

[43:37]them to crack. It's like you don't just give a car, a kid a car at 16 and all they know how to drive.

[43:42]Right. So yeah, I like eighth grade. But every kid's differently, you might have one that's so

[43:46]mature, but you might have one that is reckless and needs to have it taken away. Council, that's

[43:50]fantastic advice. I love that. Let's see. I'm a great talker. Okay. We are

[44:02]perfectly on time. This was wonderful. Thank you for like a wonderful book.

[44:13]Amazing. And I will sign books even though I feel very weird about it.

[44:17]If anybody wants me to sign one, I will. I feel awkward.

[44:21]Let me have books on print. You can purchase them and get them signed. We also have a copy of

[44:25]the book. Yes. And have Jordan. If you have a kid under like 10, this book is so

[44:31]good. Under 10, I have a one